Footsteps Episode 4

Welcome to Footsteps, the podcast of the Master of Human Rights program housed in the Faculty of Law at the University of Manitoba. Join us as we explore and uncover inspiring stories about human rights, human rights education, and the remarkable journeys of our students, human rights advocates, and changemakers. We're excited to have you with us on this journey.

Hello everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Footsteps. I'm Maddy Nowosad, an upper-year student in the Master of Human Rights program and your host for today's episode.  Joining me in studio today is Ana-Maria Costa, a fellow student in the Master of Human Rights program who I've had the pleasure of learning from and alongside over the past year.  One of the things that I learned is that her research is shaped by her own family story, which guided her towards studying international law, criminal law, mass atrocities, refugee law and impunity, all of which we're going to unpack over the course of today's episode.

Ana-Maria, thank you for joining us today.

Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.

As you know, our program has two options or streams as we call them. I'm in the practicum stream and you're in the thesis stream. So, I want to talk about your thesis research today. But before we get into that, I'm wondering what's the earliest experience or influence that you can remember that sparked your interest in human rights?

The earliest memory that I have would be in elementary school. I had a really wonderful teacher, Madame Piro, who at the end of the year would gift all of us students a book for us to read over the summer, which was incredible for a little book lover like me. And the book that she had gifted me was Underground to Canada, and that's by Barbara Smucker.

It's a story about a young girl who is a slave and tries to escape from Virginia to Canada. And that was one of the first books that kind of exposed me to human rights violations and human rights issues.

That's incredible, to have a teacher gift you a book for the summer, and that you read it over the summer because I feel like a lot of kids aren't reading these days.

No. And even for her to take the time, like everyone had their own book that that she felt suited them and like their interest, which was really incredible that at such a young age she was able to see that I was so passionate about human rights issues and just wanting to know more.

That's amazing.

From this first experience then, how did you end up in the Master of Human Rights program?

I've always been very passionate about social justice issues and just wanting to know more and wanting to know how a lot of these issues arise and the inner workings of them, and how to kind of combat them or prevent them from occurring again. Even with the Rwandan genocide, like that was another one throughout my education that really caught my interest and sparked my interest in human rights specifically.
Right.

The movie Hotel Rwanda had come out, and I remember watching it. I was around 12 years old, and I once again was just so intrigued with how something this gravity was allowed to go on for the time that it did, with no help or assistance from like, the United Nations (UN) or the government itself. Just so devastating to the country.

And yeah, that kind of guided me into my interest. I am a first-generation university student, so even going into university, I wasn't aware of, like all of the options that you have specifically here at the University of Manitoba. There’s so many things that you can study. And it wasn't until the end of my undergraduate degree that I had met a professor in the faculty of sociology.

I was in her genocide studies class, and she was the one that really motivated me and sparked my interest in the Master of Human Rights program. I had written a paper in her class on the coup d'etat in Chile, but under the lens of genocide.

Right.

And she had, pulled me aside and she was like, you would actually be really interested in this program. I think this really suits your area of study. And you should totally look into it. And from there, I had no idea that programs like this even existed here.

That's the best when you have a teacher that sees your passion and really points you in a direction where you'll succeed.

Exactly. Yeah. It's really amazing.

Let's get into your research. Your thesis looks at the International Convention for the Protection of All Persons from Enforced Disappearances, Chile's justice system, and the harms that occurred during and after the 1973 coup d'etat in Chile. You've shared with me and some of our classmates that this research is inspired by your family. Tell me more about your family's story and how it led you to the research question that you're asking in your thesis.

Yeah. So my family arrived here in Canada in 1976, just following the coup d'etat.

[Audio clip of Allende’s speech].

That was democratically elected president Salvador Allende, making a speech to the country of Chile on September 11th of 1973 as essentially a final goodbye. The Pinochet regime had gone into the government palace, and they were going to murder him, capture him. There's been a lot of speculation that he had taken his own life. However, the soldiers, who were a part of the Pinochet government, were in the palace, and they were going to get him. That was essentially the fall of the Socialist government. And it was a speech that he was making. At the end, he says, long live Chile, long live the workers, he will always be with them. And that was his last speech that he had made before he died.

So that would have been playing over people's radio.

Exactly. Yeah.

Wow.

Before he was formally elected, there were a couple attempts to either murder him to make sure that he wasn't elected as president. There was a lot of influence from the United States. They did not want a socialist president running the country. They had a lot of different companies and businesses that ran out of Chile. So, the thought of having a president that was focused on benefiting and supporting the people of Chile and them alone was threatening to them.

Right.

So, in order to get rid of that goal that Allende had for the country, they thought, let's actually just overthrow him and remove him. It's so interesting to see the influence of non-state actors in all of these conflicts, States that do not actually have any hand in the country, have so much influence as to what happens to those who live within it. For about 17 years, under his dictatorship, they destroyed the lives of thousands of Chileans all throughout the country due to their political ideologies.

There were over 40,000 Chileans that were captured and subject to execution. Enforced disappearances were imprisoned or experienced gruesome tortures. My family was directly impacted by this conflict. My grandfather, along with four of his siblings, were captured and taken to various detention sites where he was beaten, starved, and subject to numerous rounds of electrical shocks. My family was impacted because of my great uncle, which is my grandfather's younger brother. He was a candidate for the Socialist Party, so an immediate conflict with the Pinochet government. So, following their capture, three out of the five siblings were released soon after.

Okay.

However, my grandfather and his brother were not, they were held for, I believe three months is how long they were held in detention. They were transported to various detention sites. However, on the last one, prior to them arriving at the new facility, one of the military soldiers actually helped them escape.

Wow.

Yes. Which is incredible. It's amazing.

Yeah.

And had he not done that, who knows what would have happened. But my grandfather and his brother had escaped. They fled to my grandmother's family's home. And I remember my grandma talking about it, and even my mom just recounting that memory and talking about when they had arrived at the home and just opening the door to them. My grandpa had like dried up blood all along his face, presumably his own blood, and he was wearing torn up clothing. He had no shoes on, was very weak and he looked incredibly ill and just like malnourished and just pretty horrific stuff, especially for my mom at the time was eight years old, and she still remembers every single moment of that. My mom was about eight. My uncle ten, and my aunt was six years old. So, they're all very young, but my mom still remembers it like it just happened yesterday, which is incredibly horrific.

Yeah.

After they arrived at my grandmother's family home, my grandma had already prepared the documents for them to come to Canada as refugees.

They packed up their things and they left as soon as they could. My grandfather's brother, who is along with him in that area, escaped. He fled to Argentina, where, as my family had come to Canada, unfortunately, my great uncle, when he had arrived in Argentina, he was recaptured and sent back to Chile. Is what the family was told.

Okay.

He remained in prison for who knows how long. And sadly, disappeared after that. And my family has never found out what happened to him, where he went, how long he was in one of these detention sites. It is all been speculation from other prisoners that were there with him, or people that might have seen him behind the gates, but no one actually knows the exact moment that he had left or what had happened to him. If he was murdered, if he had escaped. No one has any information. It's one thing that my family has been searching for answers for, for the last five decades, and that started with my great grandparents, all of their children, my grandfather, his children, and now even like us as the new generation. Like that's something that we all are very much aware of.

And that's something that just continues with our family searching for answers and just understanding what happened to him. How did you make the connection in your studies? And, and, you know, figuring out that this is, what you want to dedicate your thesis to? And how did that come about? What was that like? Just growing up with, my grandpa and my grandma talking about everything that they had experienced, along with my mom and aunt and uncle, just knowing that this is something that has impacted my family for decades, and it's something that they live with and have always tried to seek understanding and get answers.

It motivated me to look further and try to understand why they weren't able to find out those things, like what was holding them back, or if there was anything that I could do. Which then led me to the International Convention for the Protection of All Persons from Enforced Disappearances. And by studying this, like I learned that Chile is was one of the first ratifying states to, to sign on this convention, which is a wonderful thing.

But, in practice.

Exactly. Yeah. Exactly.

Because we can see like this was signed in December of 2006. Okay. It's 2026. And my family still has little to no information as to his final whereabouts. And that goes on for thousands of other families that have this exact same experience or something very similar. Yeah, there's no answers and no one knows what's happening and no one knows what happened or where they are.

Yeah.

And it's interesting to see that although this country signed a, you know, United Nations document saying that they were wanting to prevent enforced disappearances and also protect and provide information for loved ones of those that have disappeared, that that has not happened.

Just to go back for a second. Can you explain just a brief definition of enforced disappearances?

So enforced disappearances are the arrest, detention or abduction of individuals by state agents or groups acting with the authorization of the state? They then deny any culpability, involvement, conceal information. Obviously, a significant human rights violation and many, many different rights. But I want to talk a little bit more about the International Convention for the Protection of All Persons from Enforced Disappearances.

I'm wondering if in your research, you found any functions of the document? We know it's flaws, as we've touched on, but why is it still important, or is it?

Specifically, under article four of this convention, the provision requires that state parties that ratify this document take the necessary measures to ensure that enforced disappearances become a criminal offense under the state's domestic law that I've come across, this is one of the only documents that is legally binding and requires that states abide by these provisions, all other ones, as we know, expect states to abide by their provisions.

However, that's not always the case, as we've seen. But with this specific one, this one does require that it's implemented within the state's criminal code. A lot of times, specifically in Chile, that is not the case, right? They've received multiple recommendations from the United Nations when, when they've examined how this particular convention has been implemented within the state and it's clearly not being done in the way in which it should be, and they've told the country that they need to make some changes and that it has yet to happen.

So, I think it is incredibly important to highlight the gaps when it comes to implementation and then implementing the provisions at which the country has committed to. I think we see that the gap between what's on paper and implementation and, I think a lack of accountability, is one thing that comes up in this. And a lack of accountability is one of the really troubling aspects of this human rights issue.

And I think we see that across many of the domestic and international human rights issues that we see today. I'm wondering, is this where the idea of impunity comes in? And if you could explain this idea to us.

Of course. So, impunity is absolving someone from punishment or any negative consequences for their actions. It is for an individual to be acting without a fear of punishment, right?
Essentially to do what they want with no repercussions to follow. 
Right.

When we're talking about the United Nations and the recommendations that they've made to Chile, and their justice system, and in terms of implementation, that's kind of where this comes up, right? Yes. Specifically in Chile. Considering one of the recommendations that the UN has made and the reports, Chile still has amnesty law, it's decree law 2191.

Okay.

And it was a law that was implemented and introduced by General Pinochet.

Okay.

And that actually was adopted in Chile in April of 1978. And this granted amnesty for any and all who were part of the Pinochet regime and committed crimes throughout 1973 until March 10th of 1978, which is when the coup had ended and when Pinochet had lost any power and control of the country itself.

And yeah, the UN, in the reports that I've read, they've questioned why they still have it. The state argues that they do not use it. However, it's still there. What are some of the pathways, perhaps to seeing accountability? In the justice system? I guess removing that law would be one pathway. Yeah, that'll definitely be a step in the right direction. Doing the research that I've been doing, there's been a lot that has come up regarding the way that the government works, as well as the law system in Chile, and there's been a lot that I have learned through this type of research where even now, like they have created laws that protect police officers and officials that do commit crimes.

And that's almost like reinforcing the use of impunity and just the continuation of harm, rather than reconciling with the issues that were done in the past. It's just a continuation of it in a different form. So by just advocating, even like demanding that there be change un like a government level and a like justice level is huge, but it takes a lot more than just like getting rid of a specific law that makes sense.

I think in a way, the work that you're doing, researching and documenting the response of Chile's justice system, and looking at those flaws critically, is itself a form of accountability. And at the same time, you're preserving your family's stories, that these systems often try to bury. And I think that's really significant. What has it been like to research something so closely tied to your own family?

It has been a very inspiring and at times difficult journey, but a really important one. It has been something that I've obviously grown up around and have known about since I was young. Being able to talk to my grandma about it and have her retell a bunch of her experience during the coup and even after of her life.

And here in Canada has been a really amazing opportunity and just experience that I've had. It has also been incredibly interesting to learn more about what happened and what's come from some of the cases that I have read on when it comes to enforce disappearances, and even just some of the advocacy work that's being done in Chile, and learning about the steps that they're taking to make sure something like this doesn't happen again, and also to support the victims and their families, has been really amazing to see and to come from.

Tell me more about the advocacy piece.

In Chile, they did build a center of human rights in Chile, and it's just focused on the coup d'etat. They have every victim's photo laid out in this museum. And there's been also a lot of, advocacy groups. There's one that I've cited quite a bit, Operation Condor, it's a website that was created through a bunch of different NGOs and organizations where they look directly at, the impacts of Operation Condor.

They talk about it, they have a bunch of cases, and they list every single victim that was a part of Operation Condor, which actually spanned 13 different South American countries, Chile being one of them. And I've found my uncle in there, I go. Yeah. So it's been a really interesting and incredible journey to find documents where his name is listed as one of the victims.

And there's been cases where they listed potential people that were part of his disappearance, which is incredible to see that too. Sadly, no charges have been laid against them, but that's a whole other thing. And just seeing that there is still work being done and you can see that people still care about this and they're still seeking the truth, and they're still seeking justice for those that have lost their lives or are missing or families that just need closure. And it's a really beautiful thing to see.

I know you're still in the early stages of your thesis, but I'm curious. You talked about your grandmother and her retelling these stories, and I'm wondering what your research will look like in practice and what methods you'll use. Will it be interviewing your relatives or analyzing specific documents or records, anything? Like what does that look like?

Yeah. So, my hope is to be able to interview my grandmother and just hear from her firsthand experiences and learn from her, too. And along with that, I am going to be looking at a lot of the United Nations reports that they've made and, always referring back to the convention itself, as well as Chile's criminal code and just kind of diving in and seeing what they have implemented or what they have yet to implement, and kind of just unpacking different reasons as to why I may be there, avoiding certain provisions, why they've adopted some or maybe change the language of some to kind of fit the narrative that they want even other scholarly work looking at that, too, there has been some research done regarding the coup itself, but yeah, just any and all information that I can get. You've provided me a bunch of books I love.

I love to pick up a book when I think of my classmates when I'm out and about.

And we appreciate that.

This is really important work, not just for your family, but I can imagine it's incredibly meaningful to others who have shared family history and experiences and even just you speaking about it like sharing your family story. I'm glad that you're speaking about it, and thank you for sharing that. And as human rights researchers, often, we spend a lot of time thinking about who is this research for and why we're doing it, how we're going to share it with other people, whether that be the public, the academic community, or, those that are most impacted by these human rights violations or issues.

It's so important to have these discussions and to educate not only ourselves, but others on these critical issues. And conflicts that occur in our world and just to better understand them. For me, this has been an incredibly personal and rewarding journey to learn more about my family's history, and it's also been incredibly empowering, and I think it's so important for others to understand their family's history and understand where they come from. And just by learning your family's history, your country's history better equips you to deal with certain things.

Earlier, we talked a little bit about your first experience learning about human rights violations and what brought you to the Master of Human Rights program. So, I want to go back to that for a second. Back in February at the Master of Human Rights Program Research Symposium, we had the opportunity to meet Lieutenant General Romeo Dallaire, who was the commander of the United Nations Peacekeeping mission in Rwanda between 1993 and 1994 during the Rwandan genocide. We've had so many incredible opportunities throughout our program, and the Faculty of Law events to connect with different people working in the field of human rights. Alex Neve being another one. And I'm wondering how meeting human rights activists, advocates, leaders has shaped the way that you're now thinking about your own career path and what's possible in our field.

My plan after I'm done my master's is to go to law school. I plan to go to law school as soon as we're done. And then from there, I hope to practice human rights law and international law. We've had a great opportunity to learn from Professor Gower, who is a human rights lawyer, and hear from Alex Neve, who is also a human rights lawyer.

It's been really wonderful to see and learn from such incredible people who are working directly in the field that I hope to work in in the future. It's been quite the honor to learn and hear from these extraordinary people. I have one last question for you. We kind of touched on this as well, but what advice, do you have for listeners who are feeling inspired by your story and your family's story and who might be wondering how to start researching the human rights stories in their own families or communities?

That's a great question. I think, honestly, the biggest thing is talk to the people that you love, talk to your family members and learn all that you can about them. Learn where they come from and then from there, look into the countries that your family's from. Look into certain events that have happened, or yeah, the historical events that have occurred in the country itself is a really important and easy way to start, I think, and I can't stress that enough, the importance of having conversations with loved ones and just understanding where they come from and where you come from.

It is a privilege to have these conversations with our family members and to learn more about ourselves and them. I totally agree, and I think we can all do that in our our lives every day, whether we're human rights researchers or advocates, or just, you know, people who are listening out of curiosity, in your own workplace, in your own, you know, conversations with your friends, talking about where your family's come from and what that means and, and how that shapes how you move through the world.

I think that's really, something we can all do.

I agree.

I'm really looking forward to reading your thesis and hearing about your findings. Your work is so important. Thank you so much for telling us your family’s story. And thank you so much for joining us today. I have learned so much from you.

And I imagine listeners also learn so much from you. Thank you, Ana-Maria.

Thank you so much for having me Maddy.

Thanks so much for listening to Footsteps. I hope you learned something new from this conversation. If you don't want to miss our next episode, make sure to hit follow on whichever platform you're listening from. If you enjoyed today's episode, leave a review. It helps new people find us. Until next time.