Footsteps Episode 2

I. Introduction (0:00 - 1:48)

0:00
In high school and in my undergraduate degree, I really didn't know what I wanted to do, but I basically did. I wanted to do human rights, but in my undergraduate degree, and I had an amazing time there, a lot that I did was kind of very rigid, probably because I took a lot of political science courses, which are very focused on those institutions that are entrenched.

0:21
But coming to this degree of human rights, while those institutions are very valuable in upholding human rights, there's also so many other avenues that you get to look at through this degree, whether it be the law and a theory and the practice - and kind of meshing all of those together, I think really made me realize what I actually want to look at and what I actually want to do going forward.

0:43
So I just heard you say you “didn't know what I wanted to do, but I actually did” and do you think that's the case with most people, that somehow it's intuitive inside of you and it's just a matter of finding the right educational path to be able to tap into that intuition?

0:56
Yeah, I definitely think it is. I think back to my first year of this degree and all of us first years were sitting around asking our different human rights research interests and there was a lot of “umms” and “uhs” and “I don't knows” and maybe “why am I here”. And but now in second year, I think we've kind of all found our footing and realized that this was where we were meant to be. We just didn't know it at the time.
[MUSIC]

1:29
Welcome to Footsteps, the podcast of the Master of Human Rights program housed in the Faculty of Law at the University of Manitoba. Join us as we explore and uncover inspiring stories about human rights, human rights education, and the remarkable journeys of our students, human rights advocates, and change makers.We're excited to have you with us on this journey.

II. Discovering Human Rights (1:49 - 4:47)

1:54
Hi, Kira. How are you?

1:55
I'm good. How are you doing?

1:56
Good. It's really nice to be able to have this chat.

1:59
Yeah
1:59
Usually we've spoken about more business kind of things, so it's kind of nice to be able to sit and have a little conversation about how things are going at school.

2:06
Yeah, it's really nice.

2:07
So, Kira, tell me a little bit more about yourself in terms of what made you interested in human rights.

2:13
Yeah, it definitely didn't start early in life, or at least I didn't realize that human rights was what I was interested in.

2:20
I was always interested in kind of reproductive justice from a younger age, but I didn't realize that that was actually a direct connection to human rights.

2:29
So I would. I mean, I grew up queer in a very small town, also a pretty poor area of Nova Scotia. So I saw a lot of kind of inequality, but no idea how to tackle it. I mean, I came from a lower income household myself, so I didn't know exactly how to deal with that. And like I said, reproductive justice and queer rights was always something really important to me. I tried to promote it a lot in my high school and then I followed that through in my undergraduate degree, but I took a very political route.

2:58
Tell me a little bit more about sort of that link between your personal experience in high school and then deciding go into politics for a little bit.

3:08
Yeah. So I was always the kid who was interested in politics in school.

3:13
And then we had a provincial election coming up in 2017 in Nova Scotia and I got on board with the Liberal Party and just kind of saw what they were doing. And I was really interested in all of that.

3:23
And I worked to promote kind of STI awareness in my high school.

3:28
And then that all kind of translated into university where I took a public policy and governance degree at a university in Nova Scotia.

3:35
And I also that is very politics institutional kind of by the book.

3:41
Whereas when I came across this program and was trying to figure out what I wanted to do after university, I was like, well, maybe there's other avenues like NGOs and other things that I should be looking at that aren't just kind of this by the book kind of setup that we have in Canada.

3:55
So a move from being kind of thinking about advocacy and then into politics and then from the politics into really starting to focus in, OK, this is an area of human rights or this relates to human rights?

4:07
Exactly. Yeah. So I kind of moved away from politics a little bit and said, OK, what do I actually want to do with my life and where is my energy best kind of put in life? Is it in this political realm or is it somewhere else?

4:21
So I signed up for this program at the U of M and had no idea what I was really doing, as I think a lot of us don't know what we're doing. And I said, I'm just going to kind of try to figure out what I want to do with human rights through this degree, whether that does make me end up back in politics or somewhere else.

4:40
So maybe a little bit of a leap of faith kind of thing.

4:43
Definitely, Yeah. And it's worked out very well so far.

4:46
Amazing.

III. Bridging Theory and Practice, Connecting personal stories to Human Rights  (4:48 - 7:42)

4:47
So, Kira, a lot of people would think that moving from something that would be more of a practical kind of approach with respect to your education and then into something that might be more theoretical, like human rights, might not be such a good move. And you're in the program now.

5:03
And how are you actually finding the program? Is it theory or is it the practical piece or what's your experience been?

5:10
Yeah, I think when I told people that I'm doing a degree in human rights, a lot of them look at you like, what does that even mean?

5:16
And that's how I kind of was at the beginning. I didn't really know what I was doing when I signed up for this degree. And you know, people are like, what is human rights? What does that mean?

5:25
And I was in the same boat with all of this theory. I was like, I don't know what international law is. I don't know what international theory is or anything like that.

5:35
And so learning about it has been really, really interesting.

5:38
It's definitely not as hands on. And that's because I'm taking the thesis route, not the practicum route, which was the choice I wanted to do.

5:45
I really enjoyed doing a thesis in my undergrad and I wanted to do that again in my graduate studies and I like learning about the theory a lot versus the hands on because I did a lot of hands on with politics. I knocked on doors and I heard what people's issues were.

6:00
And now applying it to the theory of actual law and other areas of theory really helps me kind of mesh together those and I think gives me a really strong background for what I might want to do next.

6:12
OK, so you've had a lot of hands-on experience before coming into the program and kind of maybe not realizing it at the time, but you were really with that hands-on experience doing certain types of human rights work.

6:25
And now you've taken this program and realized you're now situating the hands-on work within a framework, a legal framework, as well as a theoretical framework and learning all about how human rights structures work in in the world, I guess in Canada, but also international nationally.

6:43
Yeah, exactly. Like when you're knocking on someone's door and they're talking about affordability, for example, you're like, OK, what can I do with this? What are the actual mechanisms that I can use within human rights to make this person's lives better?

6:57
And I think looking at international law as a huge tool, if you can't tell, I'm really interested in international law as a tool to promote these human rights that, you know, people maybe don't think about everyday.

7:09
They just maybe think about affordability, a healthcare in these things, and these are actual human rights under international law. And how can we use that theory and apply it to people's everyday issues?

7:21
So that's kind of neat too, because then that basically is meaning that the program is allowing you to go deeper and deeper into human rights and understanding how you can actually have this practical experience that's sort of on the ground, but then also practical experience through your knowledge by actually connecting situations to the law and mechanisms of change. Is that fair?

7:42
Yeah, definitely.

IV. Navigating Law School as a Non-Law Student and Student Connections (7:43 - 9:14)

7:43
Tell me what it's like taking courses as a non law student with law students at the Faculty of Law.

7:50
It's definitely intimidating. I'll be honest, I'm very lucky my partner is actually a law student here, so it's nice to kind of have a buddy on the inside.

8:00
There's a girl in a law course I'm taking right now, and she's a law-JD student. And just seeing the knowledge that she also brings from her background into the international law sphere, I think really strengthens the work that all of us do.

8:12
And I think that it's great to get those experiences with law students and with the human rights students as well. I think having us centered in the law school gives us a lot of opportunities that we wouldn't otherwise have.

8:24
Is it still intimidating ?; or what have been some of the things that have helped reduce that?

8:29
Yeah. I mean, I think coming to any new school is intimidating. I mean, I came from Nova Scotia, so there was that kind of initial, meeting a bunch of new people.

8:38
But I wouldn't say, let it, you know, deter you from going to school here anything because there are a lot of lovely law students who you'll run into in the common room or in other areas or even in your classes. And the nice thing is even if it's different areas of law, you're all wanting to learn law. So there is that common connection to begin with.

8:57
And the MLSA, which is the Manitoba Law Students Association, puts on events that Masters of Human Rights students can also go to. There's a lot of open events. So I'd recommend going to those as well and just try to make friends when you can.

9:11
It's not as scary as you think it's going to be, I promise.

V. Coursework: International Law, Methods and Theory (9:15 - 11:09)

9:14
With that, then you've taken the international law course.
9:16
So can you tell me a little bit about that and what are some of the highlights?

9:20
Yeah. So I took international human rights law last year with Doctor Derejko, who is a great professor.

9:27
If you take the MHR program here, you'll have him as a prof most likely, and he will bust through the door at 9:00 AM with a coffee in his hand while you are half asleep and he will definitely wake you up with all of the knowledge he is throwing at you.

9:42
It is great. And he does so in a very kind of simple way and understandable way. He knows that you don't have a law background and he doesn't expect you to.

9:54
And he really walks through different areas of international law, whether that be around laws protecting women or social, economic, cultural rights or political rights, anything like that.He really takes it step by by step, and I think I really appreciate that about all of the courses that I've taken so far here within the faculty or within the human rights program.

10:16
They don't expect you to know everything right away, and they really take it step by step, which I love.

10:22
And what about the theory course, International Human Rights Theory? DWhat was that like?

10:26
Yeah, so I took Methods and Theory with Dr. Anderson, who is also amazing.

10:31
And he also really takes everything step by step.

10:33
And I think what I like about both courses is they get you to do a paper on something that you're interested in.

10:39
It really is what you want to work on.And they guide you in that.

10:42
And they have the knowledge that you don't have yet.

10:45
And they help you find areas to look, whether that be research areas or, you know, books and articles and everything like that.

10:52
And I really appreciate that.

10:54
And Dr. Anderson's very understanding. And he also gets you to do presentations so that if you want to do a PhD or work at an NGO and do speaking events or something like that, he helps prep you for those things as well, which I think is great, along with the traditional academic writing.

VI. Student Leadership, Opportunities and Practicum Insights (11:10 - 13:22)

11:09
So let's just switch gears a little bit because I know in addition to your coursework, you're actually on the students association.

11:16
Yeah. So last year I was new to the province, so I really didn't know what I was doing and I wasn't very involved with the students association last year.

11:24
And the people who ran it were lovely and said we actually are looking for people to run it.

11:28
And it kind of felt like fade a little bit.

11:30
So I said that I would sign up and go with the role. And I work with a lovely woman named Wendy who does finances for that as well. And we also work with another woman named Atefeh who is helping out with our Human Rights Day event and Augustine who is working on our merch.

11:45
So there's a little core four of us, but we really work for everyone in the program.

11:50
We're trying to put on events and make things that everyone will hopefully love. And then maybe next year we'll have another great leadership team who saw what we did and say, well, we want to improve next year as well.

12:03
It's wonderful that you've taken on that leadership role.

12:05
And also, I guess that there's those kinds of opportunities for students who are interested.

12:10
What about some of the students that you've encountered who are doing the practicum route? And as the student Rep, maybe there's a few things you can tell us about that.

12:19
Yeah, definitely.

12:20
So a majority of the students choose to do the practicum stream, which I think is great.

12:25
I chose to do thesis because I've done a lot of hands on work in the past and I wanted to do that theoretical work.

12:31
But something that's so great about this program is it allows you to have this practicum opportunity where you can go out in the world and you can work with people on the ground who are doing this advocacy.

12:41
So Wendy and Augustine are doing practicums and Wendy is working a lot on harm reduction in Winnipeg, which I think is so amazing.

12:51
And she tells us stories about it.

12:53
And while a lot of the work she does can seem disheartening, knowing that she goes and does it every day and then we'll write an amazing paper about it that she's going to share with all of us is great.

13:04
And a lot of the incoming students in the cohort below me that I work with are also in the practicum.

13:10
They have a lot of questions, as did I when I was in my first year. And while I'm not a practicum student myself, there's a lot of practicum students in my cohort who are willing to help, and I can lead them to those people if they need.

VII. Thesis Research 13:23 - 14:57)

13:22
So we're getting close to the end of our time, but maybe you can tell us a little bit more about your thesis research and how that's going, the writing part, whatever part you'd like to talk about.

13:33
So I'm looking at reproductive justice in Gaza, which obviously is a very heavy and sensitive topic right now.

13:40
And I chose to do this for a couple of reasons.

13:42
I had been looking at Israel, Palestine since about 2021 in May when there was a lot of tensions surrounding that.

13:50
But I had been interested in it for years and I got to go to Israel and Palestine in April of 2023 and that was incredible and it gave me that hands on kind of knowledge that I think I needed.

14:03
Obviously I can read a million articles, but kind of sitting in an ivory tower in Canada looking at Palestine and saying, well, we know X,Y and Z about whatever.

14:16
I think getting that hands on knowledge to speak to Israelis and Palestinians about their thoughts on these issues was really incredible.

14:23
And so when I came here, I am looking at reproductive justice in Gaza through international law, which I know I've talked about a million times in this podcast but I do think international law is really interesting.

14:35
So I'm looking at it through international human rights law, international humanitarian law and International Criminal law. And are there any violations of these three types of law.

14:45
And then I'm looking at, well, in states like Canada, in third states, what are our responsibilities and what can states do to protect these reproductive rights in Gaza?

VIII. Program Flexibility, Channeling Passions and Personal Growth (14:58 - 17:32)

14:57
Just want to ask another question about your research and about the program just from a slightly different angle.

15:04
So it sounds to me that you were able to identify this program and, correct me if I'm wrong, but the way it sounds to me is that you were studying in a particular area that you were interested in since high school and then did your undergraduate degree; and then when you went to the graduate program, it sounds like the graduate program has that flexibility built into it so that you can actually direct your studies while also learning from some pretty interesting people.

15:35
Does that sound right to you?

15:36
Yeah, that's completely correct.

15:38
I think in high school and in my undergraduate degree, I really didn't know what I wanted to do, but I basically did.

15:45
I wanted to do human rights, but in my undergraduate degree, and I had an amazing time there, a lot that I did was kind of very rigid, probably because I took a lot of political science courses, which are very focused on those institutions that are entrenched.

16:00
But coming to this degree of human rights, while those institutions are very valuable in upholding human rights, there's also so many other avenues that you get to look at through this degree, whether it be the law and the theory and the practice, and kind of meshing all of those together, I think really made me realize what I actually want to look at and what I actually want to do going forward.

16:22
And so I just heard you say you “didn't know what I wanted to do, but I actually did” and do you think that's the case with most people, that somehow it's intuitive inside of you and it's just a matter of finding the right educational path to be able to tap into that intuition?

16:35
Yeah, I definitely think it is.

16:38
I think back to my first year of this degree and all of us first years were sitting around asking our different human rights research interests and there was a lot of “umms” and “uhs” and “I don't knows” and “maybe why am I here?”.

16:53
And but now in second year, I think we've kind of all found our footing and realized that this was where we were meant to be. We just didn't know it at the time.

17:04
We kind of just applied for this degree and I know everyone has different stories, but the nervousness was the same for everyone.

17:12
We just applied for this kind of degree in this program and hope for the best.

17:17
And it definitely has been the best for a lot of us, I would say, where we can really channel maybe our anger or maybe our motivations into these human rights issues in a very flexible but also very knowledgeable way.

IX. Advice for Prospective Students (17:33 - 18:39)

17:32
Looking back, is there anything you wish you had done differently in terms of that first year in the program and any tips you might be able to give people who are thinking about doing a Master of Human Rights?

17:43
Yeah. So there are definitely a couple things I would do differently.

17:48
Interesting.

17:48
Yeah. I know, 
17:49
I'm taking notes.

17:50
So this school is very large. I came from a university in my undergrad that was only 5000 students.

17:57
To come to a university where there's about 30,000 students, that's intimidating. And you feel like a small fish in a big pond and you don't know what to do.

18:05
But what I wish I'd realized quicker on was this program in itself does feel a lot like my other university. It's small, it's very connected.

18:14
And I would say reach out to professors in your program, see if they have any research opportunities that you could help on. If you don't know what you're doing in a paper, ask for help.

18:23
Build those connections from the beginning as they can carry you on into your second year and into the future, because the professors here definitely will be a helping hand if you don't know what you want to do after you graduate.

18:36
So they're not that scary, The professors?

18:38
No, no, not scary at all.

18:39
Oh, that's funny.

X. Future Aspirations and Concluding Thoughts (18:40 - 20:07)

18:41
So last question, what's next once you graduate? Any ideas?

18:47
Yeah.

18:47
Any leads?

18:48
That is always the question.

18:50
So I have a couple of different ideas.

18:54
Actually, the university that I went to for my undergraduate degree has this fellowship and I got to meet some of the fellows from previous years. And basically the fellowship is based in community work and you get to run a community project that you create from the ground up on your own and it's really incredible. So I'm applying for that for next year and hoping to get it, which would be really nice to be able to go back to Nova Scotia and do some learning and then build a community project here in Winnipeg.

19:26
If that doesn't work out, however, I will be looking at different NGOs. I really want to be on the ground doing work with people in any capacity, and I think that will be the steps that I will take to do that.  

19:41
In the long run, I am hoping to do a PhD in law.  Will that work out? Who knows, but that would definitely be the ideal steps for me going forward.

19:50
And then after that, I really don't know, but I'm just hoping for the best.

19:55
Fantastic. Well, thank you so much, Kira, for this conversation today.

19:59
And I guess I'll be seeing you in a few minutes for our meeting with respect to the Students Association.

20:04
So thank you once again, and thanks, everyone, for joining us.

20:07
Yeah. Thank you, everyone.
[END]